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How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 22, 2013 20:27 UTC (Wed) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link]

i received a chromebook at google IO and have been pleasantly surprised by it. the ssh extension isn't perfect, but it lets me connect to my vps instance where i do all my work inside emacs anyway.

if they can manage to get minecraft on chromeos, i'd get each of my kids one of the samsung chromebooks. its cheaper than having them share a macbook.

as someone who has been hyper-configuring my environment since the 90s, i do find it liberating to use a zero-admin platform. of course, you have to throw in with google to get any meaningful use out of the device. i'd love to see ubuntu or someone else make a serious push into true zero-admin laptops.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 7:45 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 22, 2013 20:47 UTC (Wed) by smokeing (guest, #53685) [Link]

Chrome thing is all fine and dandy. No-nonsense designers, smart engineers, solid infrastructure supporting the storage in the cloud, unfathomable amount of collected stats only waiting to inform an intelligent virtual companion to the willing user's digital persona. Great, all-enabling future for all and every one who chooses to trust Google unreservedly. As Eric Schmidt put it, better be honest and straight, and lose anything you could have otherwise kept secret, -- and the future is yours. Come to think of it, I am just such a person, and quite a few others are, too.

I have reservations, though, but not with respect to privacy. I'm not quite fine with code being delivered from elsewhere every time on actions 'start' or 'open'; but strongest of all I, a software engineer myself, hate the language it is written in, JavaScript. Such a galactic misapplication of human resource, it just pisses me off big time.

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On the other, unrelated note, Google, by pushing Chrome that tiny little bit harder, can in a heartbeat close Ubuntu bug #1 as a mere side-effect. Call it ChromeLinux instead of Ubuntu and people in the street will catch it, much in the same way people say Samsung, rather than Android, when confronted by Mac users.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 22, 2013 22:17 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I'm not quite fine with code being delivered from elsewhere every time on actions 'start' or 'open'; but strongest of all I, a software engineer myself, hate the language it is written in, JavaScript.

The choice is yours, actually. aforementioned ssh client, e.g., is written in C/C++ and JavaScript, but you can move everything to python or C# (mono). The choice is yours. Java is not ported to ChromeOS, but it's doable if someone really needs it.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 2:18 UTC (Thu) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 16:34 UTC (Thu) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

> Seems like a waste to get so pissed off about a programming language.

It's pretty significant when you spend perhaps 50% of your working life writing code in it.

> I'd suggest either getting over it or learning enough about it to see why others like it. (I suggest 'JavaScript: The Good Parts' by Douglas Crockford.)

Chromebox Fnaf World Games

Amazingly patronizing. Well done.

Crockford is very convincing, but unfortunately in the real world, with real *big* projects, this doesn't really cut it.

Prototypal inheritance might sound wonderful but there's a reason why almost every large javascript project has ended up trying to write a class-ful object system on top of it. And no, none of them are any good.

And almost none of them are compatible with each other, which leads to fun when combing several different libraries.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 20:24 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

>> Seems like a waste to get so pissed off about a programming language.

> It's pretty significant when you spend perhaps 50% of your working life writing code in it.

Except that nobody is asking you to write or modify core chromebook code. You can continue to write in whatever language you want to use and run the results on the chromebook (using the chroot trick described in the comments)

Being picky about what languages you use is perfectly fine, and can even be an indication of good taste. (even if it means that you don't get involved with some projects)

However, getting 'pissed off' about what programming language _someone_else_ chooses to use is a completely different story. It's worse than just a waste of time, it's actively harmful

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 22:20 UTC (Thu) by robert_s (subscriber, #42402) [Link]

I was under the impression that the conversation had moved beyond the scope of just ChromeOS code.

The increasing spread of javascript makes me shudder generally (and so it should - it means there's a far greater likelihood of me having to work closely with it even more).

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 25, 2013 10:42 UTC (Sat) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

Well, in your case I think you might be disappointed.

Because as you know webtechnologies in general are already everywhere.

If you look at some of the trends, everything is starting to look like an API these days.

When someone wants to automate the deployment of new virtual machines in the 'cloud'. They use an API.

A developer might have written a smartphone native application and want it to talk to a server. They use an API.

Pretty much all these APIs are actually webservices. Thus they end up using HTTP and maybe XML. And these days they end up using JSON instead. JSON is Javascript Object Notation. A webtechnology, a subset of Javascript.

And because no other popular language has only non-blocking libraries it even makes it easy for people to build non-blocking server applications with Javascript by using nodejs. Many have been successful by doing this also.

Would it make you feel better if you won't have to see the Javascript code ? ;-)

There are ways to translate, I should say compile, from other languages to Javascript these days.

New languages are also created that way, even Microsoft has an implementation called TypeScript.

It can even be a way to boost Javascript performance:

http://kripken.github.io/mloc_emscripten_talk/gindex.html

Pay particular close attention to slide 17 where you have the green bar for Firefox+asm.js:

http://kripken.github.io/mloc_emscripten_talk/gindex.html..

In that case Javascript is only 2 times slower than native. It has been the fastest popular scripting language after Lua for a couple of years now if I'm not mistaken. And Lua was built specifically to allow embedding in C and C++ applications and thus use datastructures that better fit that usecase. So eventually the biggest overhead that is left would be translating between loosely typed data and strongly typed data.

Ever since WebGL Javascript supports arrays of strongly typed data. That is also what emscripten, asm.js use. That is where that latest performance boost originated.

So if you go by Moore's law that makes compiled Javascript 18 months behind on native performance wise right now. But for many applications performance isn't what matters, so 2 times as more than fast enough.

Yes, even on mobile. The software running on the CPU is the least taxing on your battery. The screen and WiFi/3G/4G are much, much worse. So even in that environment it is good enough.

And the performance of Javascript it's still improving.

I wouldn't be surprised when people start compiling Python to Javascript they will find that the Javascript runtime is much faster at running Python than what they are used to from the normal Python runtime.

I'm not as sad about webtechnologies winning, I know it has many limitations.

Webtechnologies are created in similar fashion as protocols, by standards bodies. Making standards takes time and you'll usually end up with the least common denominator and some option parts. Or things missing, where the implementer has to decide what to do. Sometimes make a standard less useful. Pretty much every standard has parts we love and hate.

If you want to blame someone, blame Netscape and Microsoft for Javascript.

Netscape forced Brendan Eich to create a new language in 10 (!) days (and he obviously used some nights too).

After which Microsoft forced Netscape to keep all the bad things in Javascript when it was being standardized in ECMA as ECMAScript.

Then Microsoft got over 90% of the webbrowser marketshare and stopped changing IE. Thus all the bad parts in the language remain and there is a lot of legacy code. Which makes it slow to change the language, but it is still moving.

I guess some people think compiling is the solution to that problem.

If people are really serious about it and if we see widespread use of that, then luckily there is source map support, which allows you to do debugging without having to look at the compiled code.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more use of it, especially if the result can run faster than the normal Javascript. And people want to use the languages of their choice.

But at least the web and it's technologies are a cross-platform solution, a platform on top of other platforms.

Many times it means it is less messy to write cross-platform applications based on webtechnologies than to write native cross-platform applications.

Native and cross-platform even sound a bit like an oxymoron. ;-)

The current economic model as is used in the western world and probably many other models will always push for commoditization.

And commoditization in IT/software means: standards, protocols and open source software.

That is where a platform based on standards thrives really well. So I think the web as a platform could be a natural winner in the platform wars.

We've seen what happens when proprietary platforms win the platform race. It isn't pretty, we are still living with the aftermath of some of these platforms.

Roblox is ushering in the next generation of entertainment. Imagine, create, and play together with millions of players across an infinite variety of immersive, user-generated 3D worlds. Roblox is a global platform that brings people together through play. Roblox free no download or install.

If Linux and the Free Software/Open Source software alone can't win the platform race, then please, let it be a cross-platform web which can also run on FOSS and not just some proprietary platform.

So I know what you mean, but I'm less disappointed.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 24, 2013 22:48 UTC (Fri) by smokeing (guest, #53685) [Link]

> nobody is asking you to write or modify core chromebook code
Yeah, thanks for clarification.

But no, I do take an issue with proliferation of code written in JavaScript. I am, these very days, being furious at having to change jobs a second time in half a year, for the reason that the code I had to deal with was crying for one thing: total deletion, whilst my job was to fix it. I'm just giving up. Ok, it wasn't JavaScript, but my argument still stands.

> Being picky about what languages you use is perfectly fine
I am being picky precisely with languages others use.

Ten minutes spent necessarily daily in casual company of PHP/JS developers A and B gets me nervous and excited for all the wrong reasons, such that I seek an hour every other week to hang out with Erlang developers C and D. With A and B coming in numbers --and C and D just getting old and grumpy-- I feel somewhat of an endangered species myself.

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 24, 2013 23:39 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

you have no more right to criticize them for using their language of choice than they have a right to criticize you for being 'old fashioned' and using your language of choice (be it C, Java, or whatever)

or for you to criticize them for what type of shoes they wear (or don't as the case may be)

If your favorite language falls out of favor, find another one that you like and learn it.

No language has, or will, ever succeed in completely replacing the 'preceding' languages. There are still good jobs programming in Fortran and Cobol for crying out loud

Trying to prevent other people from spending their programming time the way that they want to (or the way the people who pay the bills want to) borders on 'Evil'

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You really don't want that sort of power to exist, because fads change and someday you will be in the minority and people will wish your language would just go away.

Remember how Linus was told that he was wasting his time writing Linux? that 'everyone' knew that monolithic kernels and Unix were obsolete? what if they _could_ have prevented him from continuing to work on it?

Learn to love it

Posted May 25, 2013 15:50 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Ok, it wasn't JavaScript, but my argument still stands.

Does it? So you got a lousy job working in something else, but the fault still lies with JavaScript?

Someone blur my face while saying this, please: learn to love JavaScript. I resisted for many years while everyone around me started using it in anger, and now I enjoy it more than it should be healthy. Hey, I have even enjoyed developing a web application in PHP, it's not so bad. Or maybe I am not so picky.

I have not learned Erlang (yet) so I don't have an opinion about it, but I know that JavaScript is so much more expressive than Java or C. It can get ugly as hell, but then you can write ugly code in any language.

Learn to love it

Posted May 26, 2013 10:19 UTC (Sun) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

I have watched Gary Bernhardt's 'Wat'; my brain is forever poisoned against both Ruby and JS :) (And yes, I'm perfectly aware that languages I like and use have their own 'wat' moments.)

As for PHP: It needs to die. It not only needs to die, it needs to be balefired.

Learn to love it

Posted May 26, 2013 20:03 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

I have started to learn the logic behind the seemingly absurd JavaScript examples: the + operator works on either strings or numbers, and some things can be converted to either or not. It starts to make sense. Am I beyond help?

Logic principles cannot be applied infinitely without getting apparent absurd results, in any field. Hey, even maths have their own WAT moments, and I have not heard mathematicians renounce their evil ways because of the axiom of choice.

As for PHP: yes, it is an evil language. You can code in a 'safe' subset but then you are actively working against the language. It has no redeeming features. And yet it can be a guilty pleasure, just like GFA BASIC 20 years ago. So I have stopped despising developers because of their language of choice. Nowadays I look at PHP as a massive framework with some language-like features.

Learn to love it

Posted May 26, 2013 21:25 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

One of the key quotes from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AqbCQuK0gM is that unlike many other languages, JS has a very well defined grammar but that doesn't yield expected results always.

So, of course, yes, all of those unexpected results have a rationale behind it and JS engines can be expected to output the results consistently. It is not random garbage but one would hard pressed to differentiate when debugging some of the issues. These types of flaws are there in the languages that we are more used to but we have either internalized them somehow or overlook them.

Learn to love it

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Posted May 26, 2013 22:47 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 6:40 UTC (Thu) by euske (subscriber, #9300) [Link]

Ugh, so now we have yet another desktop OS on the table? And we have to port everything again?

Can't we just run VirtualBox on Chrome and call it a night?

OT: ChromeOS without Google account?

Posted May 23, 2013 7:55 UTC (Thu) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

Can one use ChromeOS without an Google account?

This is sth. I like with Android: Google allows us to use it with (more or less) free software (CyanogenMod, free apps from F-Droid.org) and without any Google services (OSM instead of Google maps, Xabber+jabber.org instead of GTalk, Firefox mobile as browser etc.)

Is the same possible with ChromeOS?

OT: ChromeOS without Google account?

Posted May 23, 2013 8:47 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

OT: ChromeOS without Google account?

Posted May 25, 2013 15:42 UTC (Sat) by derat (subscriber, #59036) [Link]

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How Google plans to rule the computing world through Chrome (GigaOM)

Posted May 23, 2013 14:04 UTC (Thu) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]